4/2/20 Report - Juana and Carlos Pillars and Waves Find. Tree of Life. Bottle Stopper. Assumptions and Uncertainty.

Written by the TreasureGuide for the exclusive use of treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com.

Cleaned Early Pillars and Waves Cob Found by Terry S.

Photo by Terry S.

You might remember this find.  We saw it before it was cleaned.

Found by Terry S., we wondered if it might be the earliest coin found on the Treasure Coast, and concluded that if not, it was certainly among the earliest.  These coins were not dated and even with the assayer mark it is difficult to put a specific date on them.

Terry had West Bay Trading Company clean it for him.  We can now see good detail.  To the left of the shield is the M for the Mexico mint, and to the right of the shield is the assayer mark, "G."

Here is the other side of the same coin.

Mexico Two-Real After Cleaning

Find and photo by Terry S.

Recently I showed illustrations of other coins from the reign of Juana and Carlos.

On this side of Terry's cob, you can see the two dots between the pillars, indicating that it is a two-reale.  This coin looks most similar to type 69 (p. 27) in the Calico, Calico, and Trigo book that I often cite.  That book presents 11 varieties (or types) of Juana and Carlos Mexico two-reales, including those marked with assayer's marks of R, G, F, P, A, S, L and O.

Experts agree with what I see in the Calico book and date it to around 1940 - 1948.

Great detail on a very early coin and a great find by Terry S.

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Source: LiveScience.com.  See link below.

A towering ponderosa pine discovered in the center of Chaco Canyon in New Mexico, known as the "Plaza Tree," was once thought to symbolize life and the center of the world for an ancient pueblo town. But new research suggests it may have been just a giant log no one bothered to move for 800 years, and maybe didn't hold significant meaning...

For over a hundred years, people assumed the tree had meaning; it was regarded as a "tree of life" according to one researcher, or a "world tree." The solitary tree was once thought to represent the living "center of the world" for the people of Pueblo Bonito, the largest of Chaco Canyon's "great houses," which was occupied between A.D. 850 and 1150. Some speculations placed the tree at the center of a religious cult, and an illustration of a growing "Plaza Tree of Pueblo Bonito" appears in a brochure from the National Park Service...

Eventually fantasy gives way to good sense.

"I actually have no idea whether it did, does, or ever had religious significance," Guiterman told Live Science in an email. "I don't know what it was used for, or why it was located in the plaza where it was found."...


That is refreshing.
Here is the link for more about that story.

https://www.livescience.com/chaco-canyon-famous-tree-of-life-mystery.html


I've mentioned before that when they can't identify the use of an object, archaeologists seem to interpret the object as having some religious significance or being a toy.   Its fun to think about things like that, but when you don't know, just say so, or at least make it clear that you are just guessing.

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I took a little walk the other day.  Didn't see a single person, so was suitably socially distanced and found this little object.  It looks like a bottle stopper, but has "57" on the top.

It is a about the diameter of a half dollar.  I think it might be for a Heinz 57 product.  I found a photo of one for sale listed as a Heinz 57 bottle stopper, but I don't know the age, product or type of bottle it goes with.

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Yesterday I posted a list of beach closings.  William K. sent this addition.

Read your guide today. I live in Indian Harbour Beach and the beaches are not closed here. The access parking lots to the public beaches in Satelite Beach, Melbourne Beach etc. have been barricaded, but you can park nearby and walk to the beach. This past weekend "they" closed the beaches for the weekend only from 11:00-16:00.

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The most entertaining and informative things I saw all week was when Fauci and Birx stumbled around trying to present and explain their graphs/models to the press. 

We are very much accustomed to watching the hurricane models every year and are very familiar 

with the cone of uncertainty.  We know how inexact (wrong) the models can be, and the meteorologists and public has learned the huge cost, psychological/social and otherwise, that can result.   

The equivalent of the cone of uncertainty on the epidemiological model that they presented ( I think it is referred to as the Imperial model) was huge.  Nobody pointed that out.  

They didn't bring those models and graphs back to the last briefing.  I'd be surprised if we see them again.  They raised more questions in the briefing than they answered.  It forced them to defend the unproven assumptions and arbitrariness of the model they selected.  Birx admitted to the public their model was skewed by the abundance of New York data, which is the most extreme and atypical case.  Admitting that the data is skewed wasn't the bad thing.  The bad thing was that they did not make clear why they chose what appears to be one of the most extreme models and they did not explain their assumptions and the degree of uncertainty involved.  Nonetheless, their stumbling attempt to present it all to the public was a good thing.  I'm sure they will learn from it, as we all have learned from the hurricane models we watch every year.

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I very much enjoy epistemology and studying models and looking data, and the assumptions and levels of uncertainty.  It is very much the same in meteorology and epidemiology.  Investigating the underlying processes is the fun of it to me.  It is the same with treasure hunting.  It is about problem solving and creativity.   At the center of it all are the same philosophical and psychological questions.

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The other day I mentioned something like, asking Dr. Fauci if he would need more data would be like asking a car salesman if you should buy a new car.   But there is one time a car salesman will not say you should buy a new car.  …   When he is selling used cars.
   

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It looks like the surf predictions for Sunday will be a foot or so smaller than previously predicted.

Happy hunting (whether it is in the search for knowledge or objects - same thing),
TreasureGuide@comcast.net

3/31/20 Report - Some Very Old New World Spanish Reales. A What? Sunken Submarine Found. The Importance of Good Questions.

Written by the TreasureGuide for the exclusive use of treasurebeachesereport.blogspot.com.

Early Mexico Four-Reale Displayed by McLarty Museum.

Submitted by JamminJack.

Not long ago I did a post on some of the oldest coins found on the Treasure Coast.  The one shown above is from the period of Juana and Carlos.  It is a Mexico minted four-reale.

Monedas Espanolas Desde Juana y Carlos a Isabel II: 1503 a 1868 by Calico, Calico and Trigo, 1985, shows a lot of early coins from both old world and new world mints.

See if you can tell the denomination of the one shown below..

Three Reale Shown in Calico et al Book.

Look between the two pillars above the banner and letters that run across the middle of the pillars.  Do you see three dots?  That is the denomination.  Yes, it is a three-reale!

Cobs, Pieces of Eight and Treasure Coins by Sewall Menzel shows an illustration of the designs on a a three-reale.  Here it is.

Three-reale as shown in Menzel book, Cobs, Pieces of Eight and Treasure Coins.

This next one isn't real clear, but I think you can see the two dots between the caps of the pillars.  It is a two-reale.

Two-Reale Shown in Calico et al Book.

Menzel also presents an illustration for that type of coin.

Carlos y Juana Three-Three Reale as Shown in Menzel Book.

Similarly, the one-reale has a single dot between the pillars.  I won't bother to show that one.

Both the one and two-reale, as well as the three reales shown above were minted in Mexico.

Unfortunately coinage of this period was not dated so it is nearly impossible to determine the date, or even the order of the coins.

The Calico book contains many examples and variations even a ten-reale from an old world mint.

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The crew of the USS Stickleback didn’t expect things to end this way—rising from the depths on May 28, 1958, only to be broadsided by the hull of a friendly American destroyer, the USS Silverstein. The Stickleback sank to the bottom, an 11,000-foot journey to nowhere.

Now, 62 years since the sub disappeared from any radar screen—and became one of only four U.S. Navy submarines lost since the end of World War II—it’s been found again...

Thanks to Douglas, here is that link.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/stickleback-submarine-wreck-found

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Unfortunately you can't separate Covid-19 from metal detecting since it has resulted in the beaches being closed.

Checking the statistics this morning I find that there have been 3,170 Covid-19 deaths in the United States so far.

After looking at a sea of additional statistics, one of the things that sticks out is this Fortune Magazine report from 2018 -

The Flu is Killing Up to 4,000 Americans a Week

By 

Bloomberg

February 10, 2018 9:53 AM EST

So, if this headline is correct, and as far as I've been able to find, it is, then more people got killed by the flu in one week in 2018 than have been killed in the U. S. so far this year by the current Coronavirus.

Dr. Fauci, in the March 26 New England Journal of Medicine, gives a much less dramatic estimate of Covid-19 than he has been giving on TV lately, suggesting that it might not be much different than the normal flu.

CBS admitted the image they used to show an overcrowded U. S. hostpical was actually an Italian hospital.  I'm not saying that U. S. hospitals aren't crowded.  They usually are during flu season, but the media can be deceptive.

In another report I saw that the CDC said that up to 15 times more people die of the flu than is reported on death certificates.  Health statistics can be very unreliable.  You have to look at the details.

You always have to ask questions.  I once said that the question is more important than the answer, which seems like a stupid thing to say, but the question is important.  Asking the right questions is critically important, no matter whether you are talking about something like metal detecting or epidemiology.

I'm surprised by the high degree of compliance of the American people so far.  They've been conditioned by a deluge of threats ranging from the danger of riding a bicycle without a helmet and pads to the threat of monster plastic up to the apocalyptic threat of the climate killing us all.  Americans and citizens of the world have been drowned in a sea of experts and bad reporting and have surrendered their independence to those who are thought to know better.  An informed involved public is necessary.

I'm very suspicious of what is going on here.  It is time for a whole lot of good questions.  Not the type of questions that the media is asking, but penetrating questions that will put this whole thing in a meaningful context, resolve doubt and confusion and lead to good practical decisions.

Ask the hard questions.  Hold your officials accountable.  They aren't losing their jobs and businesses.  

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The Treasure Coast surf will begin to build Saturday night.  We are supposed to have some good high surf on Sunday.

TreasureGuide@comcast.net

8/30/18 Report - Pillars and Waves Example. Native American Fort. 400-Year-Old Clan Artifact. System Coming Off Africa.

Written by the TreasureGuide for the exclusive use of treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com.

Reproduction Eight Reale After Cleaning.

Other Side of the Same Coin.

Not long ago I posted what appears to be a reproduction escudo with the plating corroded off.  I thought I might have one just like it, so went looking for that one.  I didn't find it, but located the one shown above, which I dug up some years ago.  If I correctly recall, it was found near Jensen Beach.

Anyhow, I cleaned off much of the encrustation.  It was heavily encrusted when found.  It is fairly heavy - 22.2 grams.  Not too far off the real thing.

As you can see the Pillars and Waves side still has some plating on it, but some has come off, revealing the copper underneath.

The other side is still encrusted, and the cross can barely be seen.

This one is particularly chunky and although it gave some excitement as it came out of the sand, it really isn't very realistic when you see it cleaned.

Even where the plating is still intact, it looks strange.  When new, it would still have been an obvious fake.

The Pillars and Waves side doesn't look like a genuine silver cob at all.  A genuine old silver coin that has spent time in salt water will be grey to black.

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... Not only did experts recently find the remains of the 17th century fort, they discovered some artifacts including arrow and spear tips that date back an estimated 3,000 years, indicating Native Americans were active at the site for generations. No evidence of human remains has been found...
He said it appears the Norwalk Indians, a tribe that historians know little about, had a fort at the site from about 1615 to 1640 and used it to trade goods with early Dutch settlers. The site is on a small sliver of land next to railroad tracks that carry Amtrak and Metro-North commuter trains. A 19th century history of Norwalk mentions an old Native American fort, and a road near the site is still named Fort Point Street.

The site was found during preliminary archaeological surveys ordered as part of the state's upcoming replacement of the 122-year-old Walk Bridge, which spans the Norwalk River and swings open to allow boats to pass. The bridge has gotten stuck in the open position several times and caused massive rail service delays. Construction is set to begin next year...

Here is the link for more about that.

https://www.newsday.com/news/nation/native-american-fort-connecticut-1.20709914

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A 400-year-old clan artifact was uncovered near ruins in Scotland.

Artifact Discovered Near Ancient Ruins.
Source: HeraldScotland.com link below.

Site Where Artifact Discvoered.
Source: HeraldScotland.com link below.

Here is the link if you want to read about that.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16601818.ancient-clan-artefact-uncovered-after-being-hidden-for-400-years/

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It has been a very quiet summer.  There have been no storms of any effect.

There is now one developing, but it is just coming off of Africa, and it will be a while before we know what it is going to do.  If it does eventually come our way it will take several days.

Source: nhc.noaa.gov

In the mean time...

Happy hunting,
TreasureGuide@comcast.net

1/24/15 Report - Potosi Pillars and Waves Reales Date Designations. Gusty West Winds Saturday. Coins of the Lost Galleons Book.

Written by the Treasure Guide for the exclusive use of treasurebeachsreport.BlogSpot.com.

1726 Eight Reales Illustration and Photo
Source: Seawall Menzel book Cobs, Pieces of Eight and Treasure Coins

I recently received a picture of a very interesting Treasure Coast Potosi Eight-Reales.  As a result I did a little research to see what I could learn about the cob.  One thing I learned is that before 1700, and back until when the Potosi Pillars and Waves cobs were first produced in 1652, a two digit date was typical, while 1700 and later a three digit date was typical on such cobs.

As you might know, there can be many varieties for a cob made by a specific mint in any given year.  Since different dies were used and the same die reworked and reused over the period of time, the large number of existing varieties can be over-whelming, but each difference can provide an important clue that can be used to help date and identify the cob.

The Potosi Pillars-and-waves eight reale that I recently looked at had some features that were similar in many ways to the one shown at the top of this post, although it was not the same year.

You seldom if ever are able to see all of the design features on a salvaged or dug cob.  They just aren't that perfect.  Even if the strike is near perfect, years in the ocean or sand will take a toll.

Not long ago I discussed the subject of Royals and some questions regarding their true purpose.  Royals are cobs that are produced in exceptional quality and are often considered to be presentation pieces for the king, thus the name, however their true purpose is not so certain.  (See the previous post discussing the Sedwick article on that topic.)

The above illustration from the Menzel book shows a three digit date displayed on the bottom row between the pillars, in this case "726" indicating the year 1726.   Of course that date is later than 1715 and would not normally be found on 1715 Fleet wrecks or beaches, however it does illustrate one thing that I was interested in, and that is how the dates were displayed on Potosi Pillars and Waves eight-reales beginning in 1700.

As I said above, Pillars and Waves cobs manufactured in Potosi prior to 1700 showed a two-digit date between the pillars.  "52," for example, would indicate 1652. 

On the top row between the pillars in the example shown above, you see the mint mark "P," followed by the denomination, "8," followed by the assayer intial "Y." 

In the second row, "PLVSVLTR."  Plus Ultra can be interpreted as "more beyond," referring to the New World. 

In the example above, in the third row you have the assayer initial and mint mark plus a three digit date between the columns, as is typical of Potosi eight reales produced from 1700 on.

Just one additional note: Lima also produced Pillars and Waves cobs. 

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While on the subject of cobs, I just came across a book that I evidently forgot that I had.  It is a small paperback by Kathryn Budde-Jones entitled Coins of the Lost Galleons, second edition published 1993.

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On the Treasure Coast the wind was coming from the South and West early in the day.   According to the buoy data, the waves didn't get much over three feet.  Later in the day the wind was more out of the West and North.

It doesn't look like we'll get much more than a two or three foot surf for a few days.  We do have a negative tide now.  That is one good thing.

_____

I've had a chance to give an ATX a few tests and one thing that I've seen that I like a lot compared to some other pulse detectors that I've used or tested is that a small thin gold ring gave a better signal than a clad dime.  That was observed under various conditions.

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Happy hunting,
TreasureGuide@Comcast.net

9/6/14 Report - 16th Century Cob Found on Treasure Coast. Reales, Emerald & Porcelain Found Too. Biggest Dino Ever.

Written by the TreasureGuide for the exclusive use of treasurebeachesreport.BlogSpot.com.

Very Early Mexico Four-Reale Found Along Treasure Coast
Photos submitted by Captain Jonah Martinez

I showed a great escudo and a very interesting cluster of artifacts yesterday.  Today you'll see that that was only the beginning.  You might consider this post to be continuation of yesterday's.

The crew of the Capitana has been busy this year.  It has been a good season.  Here are some more photos of finds sent in by Captain Jonah Martinez.

This is a very early four-reale.

You can see the denomination over the waves between the Pillars of Hercules.



You can see the legend running across the coin reading "PLUS ULTRA," meaning something like "more beyond" and referring to the New World.

Same Mexico Four-Reale
Photo submitted by Captain Jonah Martinez

Here is the other side of the same cob.

It would have been minted prior to the Great Shield era, which began in 1572.

Notice the M mint mark to the left of the shield.

In my 8/28/14 post I showed another old Pillars and Waves cob that will be auctioned by Sedick this November.  That particular eight-reale could possibly be a million dollar cob.

The coin shown today is probably just a bit later.







Below is a real handful of treasure.   Looks like about sixteen or seventeen reales and a piece of K'hang Hsi porcelain.  It is spelled in a variety of ways.

You can occasionally find pieces of the K'hang Hsi porcelain on the beach.

 

Handfull of Treasure
Photo submitted by Captain Jonah Martinez.

I've talked about Kang Hsi porcelain in this blog a few times, for example in my 12/29/13 post.

http://treasurebeachesreport.blogspot.com/search?q=Kang+Hsi

You can use the blog search box to find specific topics by keyword.

There was a fellow who found a entire stack of plates that were uncovered by a storm.  He didn't know what they were.  When he found out that they could have been K'hang Hsi porcelain from a sunken galleon, he returned to find them, but never did.   They could have been worth a fortune.

It helps if you read a lot so you know what to look for.

The variety of cobs you see here ranges from small half reales on up.

If you look close you can see details on a few.  Those look a lot like what you can find on some of our shipwreck beaches when the conditions are right.

An Emerald Found On The Treasure Coast
Photo submitted by Captain Jonah Martinez.

Here is one more thing to keep your eyes open for when walking down the beach.

There are treasures that aren't made of metal.
This emerald is one more example.  You have to use your eyes to find these.

Well, you've seen a good sample of the kinds of treasures that are still out there waiting to be found.  And things like this will be found from time to time, occasionally showing up on the beaches.

Thanks to the Captain for letting us see all of these.  Keep it up guys.



The remains of the largest land mammal has been discovered.  They think it would have weighed something like 65 tons, about what a Boeing 767 weighs.

Here is a link to that very good article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/09/04/this-is-the-kind-of-dinosaur-you-find-in-hollywood/


We still have a small surf on the Treasure Coast, but there are two disturbances to watch.  One is over North Florida and one is just coming off of Africa.


I'll have more new information on how coins and rings sink on a beach soon.  I made a little video of another experiment which shows what causes things to sink quickly.

Happy hunting,
TreasureGuide@Comcast.net